codre2010.07.10 [12:46]
I am sure for your good intentions, Medelen. I had never doubted for it. For that I had specified that my comment refers only to the icon model represented in the above picture, not for your person (and I'm sure that others comments refer only to the picture to)
God help us, Medelen!
Greetings from Romania to Spain :)
Meldelen2010.07.10 [12:01]
Codre, I also thank you for your comment. I want also to tell all my web fellows that I had no bad intention in submitting this icon.
Antonio B2010.07.10 [10:11]
Thank you, Tudor Codre Isac, for your kindness and for your words.
codre2010.07.10 [09:04]
This review is an opportunity to share my sadness! But please do not think any second that has to do with you, Medelen! My sadness it about only for some today ”iconographic” representations. God help you, Medelen! and pray for me!
So....
If the orthodox canonical rules are not respected even in the our Orthodox churches that does not mean they do not exist as a holy rules placed in our Churchs by saints. Deviations from canonical rules can be sometimes accepted as our weakness, but not abolished holy canons because our incapacity. Just like sin. Unfortunately, the sins it happens in all orthodox church. But it does not mean that ar not REAL sins because the sins are committed in our orthodox churches (it,s a wrong conclusion). Orthodox canonical rules are normative for Orthodox people not to someone else. For our cause, the sinners, many deviations from the canons are happening in our ORTHODOX Church (Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Russian, Serbian, Georgian etc. whatever) . We must accept that as a reason for our repentance, not transform the deviation in Rule, promoting these deviations as a normative (normality). I have small paper icons with such representation to, but I not promote them because not canonical!
As a book is researched and then published with the blessing of a bishop, more than so should be a model icon!, but unfortunately this does not much happen! Is very interesting that, in the past, this is not required because the icon painters respected icon canons. The icon painters were also invested with a kind of diaconate, and they must lead a clean life that were painted image of God! This is not only about art but especially about God's image. We do not forget that all art, in general, is influenced by some dogmas, consciously or unconsciously, especially iconographic art.
Then people, in the past, did holy things with more seriousness and responsibility, as we learn from St. John Damascene, Theodore Studite and several canons of councils!
Meldelen2010.07.09 [12:42]
By a contemporary artist in a Russian church:
http://artsfer.ru/smishlyaevka/sm_int02_kupol.htm
MarPaa2010.07.09 [09:24]
I'm not sure I clearly understood you, Antonio, but it has to be clear that we are not talking about different habits or cultural expressions here. St. John of Damaskos was teaching the very dogma, which shows the Catholic understanding of our one Faith.
Antonio B2010.07.09 [09:10]
The Holy Orthodox Church is Universal and because of that, even the dogma is only one, there are variety of habits, cultural expressions, etc. The West Orthodox Christians are not equal to the East Orthodox Christians, even only one Faith makes union of all us, only one dogma. We must understand this. Greetings and peace!
MarPaa2010.07.09 [08:41]
St. John of Damaskos, the main icon theologian of our Church, is very clear in his teachings: "If someone dares to make an image of the Divinity, which is unmaterial and bodyless, we reject it as false." (Sorry, my translation, but read his writings yourself, if needed) In my understanding this kind of pictures are tolerated out of economical reasons. They shouldn't be painted, but not destroyed either, since in the latter case a lot of commotion might be caused. This said, I do not take any stance whether this kind of pictures are welcome here or not. Perharps the team could try to make some kind of decision, but there might remain problems where the strict line is drawn.
marian_do2010.07.09 [06:50]
Something like that... and not just Russians, in Romania there are many old like this but decided to STOP PAINTING this way. We attend to the messages they can send some icons. As I said - who wants to understand this well, greetings and peace!
Antonio B2010.07.08 [23:04]
Anyway, you've said that Russian Orthodox Church PROPOSED, but not ORDERED. Rublev's version is a model, but not an obligation.
marian_do2010.07.08 [21:25]
In 1551, the Moscow sinodal council said: "Archbishops and Bishops from all cities and monasteries in their dioceses, should take care of churches and painters work to control them.
So the models, and works as icons of the greatest painters were established as examples. The Synod of Moscow mentioned above, the icon painted by Rublev Trinity is proposed as "perfect model".
Damianka2010.07.08 [19:55]
This icon is a western representation, however, does not contradict the orthodox regulations! (from 18th century in the Russian Church possible)
Damianka2010.07.08 [19:46]
Nach der ostkirchlichen Tradition ist die Dreifaltigkeit (Trinität) Gottes nicht darstellbar. Als Symbol der Dreifaltigkeit wurde der geheimnisvolle Besuch der drei Engel bei Abraham und Sara im Hain Mamre (Baum) angesehen. Im Buche Genesis, Kapitel 18, Vers 1 ff. heißt es hierzu:" Der Herr erschien ihm(Abraham) bei den Eichen von Mamre...Er sprach:...Ich hole einen Bissen Brot; labet euch und wandert nachher weiter.
Da eilte Abraham in das Zelt zu Sara und sprach: Eile Dich! Nimm drei Maß Mehl, knete es und backe Kuchen!. Er selbst lief zur Rinderherde, suhte ein zartes und schönes Jungrind und gab es dem Knechte; der eilte, es zu bereiten. " Dieser Bericht aus dem Buch Genesis ist bei anderen Ikonen (Alttestamenariescher Art) getreulich wiedergegeben.
Hier sitzen nur die drei Engel (symbolisch: Gottvater, Gottsohn, Heiliger Geist) mit Stäben als Zeichen ihrer Wanderschaft in den Händen an einem rechteckigen Tisch, auf dem ein Trinkgefäß steht. Links ist das Haus Abrahams und Sara zu sehen und in der Mitte ein Baum, den Hain Mamre andeutend. Rechts im Hintergrund sind stilisierte Felsen.
Noch im 17.Jhd. verbot das Moskauer Kirchen-Konzil die Darstellung Gottvaters als Greis. Später finden wir in der Ikongraphie, insbesondere auch Russlands, die aus der westlichen Malerei herkommende Darstellung der Dreifaltigkeit mit Jesus Christus als jugendlichen Menschen, Gottvater als Greis mit Bart und mit
dem Heiligen Geist in Gestalt einer Taube.
Antonio B2010.07.08 [18:37]
My dear friend and brother,
Without any desire of starting a bad discussion, I would like to know which Synodus or Council has determined that this representation is uncanonical, or if that's a custom which is respected more in some countries than in others, because (I think) if it was really uncanonical and declared as that by our hierarchy and not by mere historical custom, this icon would be not accepted in any Orthodox church, no matter the country. I think that's this second option.
marian_do2010.07.08 [12:41]
Can be in churches from Russia, Bielorrusia, Ukraine, Greece, ROMANIA, etc, but these are uncanonical. Not churches are uncanonical. This interpretation of the Holy Trinity! Meldelen, "So what?" I hope you understand.
Antonio B2010.07.08 [10:42]
This icon which is said to be uncanonical for some fellows in this web, I have seen it in so many Orthodox churches in Russia, Bielorrusia, Ukraine, Greece, etc. Are uncanonical those Churches? I think they are perfectly canonical. This "uncanonical" icon is less frequent thant the Rublev's version, but you shouldn't disapprove Meldelen's contribution to this web. She photographied an icon who was located in an Orthodox Church in a country which is absolutely Orthodox. You should be more tolerant!
Meldelen2010.07.08 [09:57]
Anyway, I'm not the defending specially this representation. Personally I prefer Rublev's one. I'm only telling that the bad marks were UNFAIR!!!
Meldelen2010.07.06 [23:34]
Ok. Then I suggest you to write and tell this to Orthodox Church of Russia, Greece, Ukraine, Cyprus... in their temples this icon is displayed.
PhotoRomania2010.07.06 [22:48]
In Orthodoxy God is never represented as an old man. This kind of representation have a catholic influence. In Orthodoxy God is painted as the three young men, at Mamre oak. These three man means the Holy Trinity. We must keep the Orthodox canonical rules.
Meldelen2010.07.06 [22:34]
So what? Mykonos' chappels are full of this kind of icons and so the Russian churches. I think this marks are unfair. Greece is Orthodox!
Florina2010.07.06 [16:47]
Please, see this discution
Meldelen2010.07.06 [00:03]
This is an icon located in an Orthodox chappel, in an Orthodox island, in an Orthodox country. Are you telling that they are not canonical?
God Help Us!